Pro Wrestling Ponderings’ Derek Walker recently sat down with Gabe Sapolsky, current booker of EVOLVE Wrestling and Vice President of Talent Relations with WWN, to discuss the company’s direction, its new wave of talent, some of its key partnerships and what he hopes to get out of them, as well as the success of the independents on the whole. Interview conducted in Summit, IL on May 20, 2018.
Pro Wrestling Ponderings: I’d like to start this by gathering some of your feelings on your collective body of work since beginning EVOLVE back in 2010. Overall, when it comes to this company, what are you most proud of? What stands out to you as your biggest accomplishment or achievement?
Gabe Sapolsky: That’s a good question.
Because it’s been eight years now.
Yeah, it’s been eight years. We’ve definitely had some ups and downs, there’s no doubt about that. I think myself personally, I’ve gone through a lot of changes and you can kind of tell when I was on my game. Like, things like becoming a dad and raising my kid, and other things in my personal life have distracted me at times. But then again I feel like we’ve done a lot of amazing things. I’m really proud of the fact that we’ve seen so much amazing talent move on to make money in WWE and NXT, and we’ve been able to develop a relationship there and get the respect of people like William Regal and Triple H, that recognition from their system, is something I am very proud of.
I am very proud of the different forms EVOLVE has taken over the years. Some of it has worked and some of it hasn’t, but the stuff that hasn’t worked, I am really, really proud of when we kind of went with all the grappling, and we shortened our shows to five or six matches shows, and they were all main events, I’m super proud of all of those shows. And the wrestling that we had, the growth of the company too. You know, there was one year we only did three shows because there was no demand for what we were doing at the time, and now we’ve grown into something that can run double shots every month. Some shows draw good, some don’t, but we’re still in a position where we can come to Chicago and Detroit and have shows, and we weren’t in that position several years ago. And [we can] go to New York or Boston or Florida or wherever and do these shows, or go to ‘Mania weekend and put on a couple of shows and have good attendance.
So, when you look at the talent that’s developed here and the different show formats we have here, that we keep evolving the product, that’s something I am extremely proud of and happy with too, that EVOLVE constantly changes and evolves. Even with the show right here tonight in Chicago, it was completely different from any show format, that style, that we’ve done, ever maybe. Again, we’re always pushing things in new directions and looking for new talent and developing that talent, and just evolving for lack of a better word.
What is your goal for the company at the present moment? What do you hope to accomplish over the next couple months or year or so?
First and foremost, we want to deliver for the people that support us and we do deliver a pretty specific product. There are certain audiences that we don’t cater to, and I’m aware of that, and that’s fine. But we like to find our niches and go with that. We’re always looking for constant growth and we want to keep growing Club WWN on WWNLive.com, that’s a huge part of our business and another accomplishment that I’m really proud of, that we’re able to kind of come out of the ashes to start this Club WWN on short notice, which is a difficult thing to do. That was something that was a setback for the company for a while, and now it’s become a strength of the company. I’d like to see that continue to grow, and I’d like to see the talent development aspect of EVOLVE continue to grow.
I’m much better and more knowledgeable now than I was just a year ago, just being around NXT and people there and being able to learn the things I learned there. My goal is to better the independent scene and spread that knowledge that I’m learning. I’ve been fortunate to be mentored by some absolutely genius people, from Paul Heyman back in ECW to the people that I’m hanging with now. I don’t want to be selfish and keep that all to myself, so I like to have this talent and be able to spread this knowledge and grow and help the independent scene with all of that, as well, and do that through EVOLVE. That’s another big goal going into the future.
We recently saw the departure of Zack Sabre. Jr over WrestleMania weekend, and these are Keith Lee’s final two shows for you. I’ve heard rumblings that EVOLVE is moving away from the intense mat-wrestling style of old and into something new. What is this new direction for the company?
You’ve got to go with the horses you have, right? So when we had Drew Gulak and Biff Busick and Timothy Thatcher on a regular basis — I mean, he’s back in June, but he’s been part-time now, at best — and Tracy Williams and then Matt Riddle came into the mix, and I’m missing some people right now, but you could go with the grappling style because that was the strength of your talent right then. We saw a lot of those names obviously move on and Zack Sabre Jr. was kind of that [last guy to go], even though Tracy Williams is still here in a big part of things, but Zack Sabre Jr. was the last cog of that whole grappling kind of thing.
Now, I’m not going to say we have a set direction. I think we’re experimenting with a lot of things. You see what we did with [Shane] Strickland tonight, getting him started in a big way. That could have easily just been, ‘You know, let’s throw him out there for 25 minutes and do a dream match and kick out of all of each other’s finishes and everything’, but we took a chance and went in a different direction with it and now we have Strickland right into one of those spots, you know, Zack Sabre Jr.’s spot. I’m not going to acknowledge that it’s Keith Lee’s last weekend yet, but we have a completely fresh guy that just moved into the main event scene and a completely different style, and we did a completely different finish to a show tonight than we’ve done in EVOLVE history pretty much.
Right now we’re in the process of discovering what this promotion is going to be by bringing in lots of new talent and seeing where they take us. We go where the talent takes us and I am as excited to see where it all goes in the future as anyone out there.
You also have a number of new talents making their debuts or returns this weekend, including Myron Reed, Trey Miguel and Zachary Wentz. I still remember having a conversation with you about bringing in some of these guys, especially Myron. What do you see in this crop of talent that made you want to bring them in?
They do some spectacular things. I don’t know them personally, I’m just getting to know them now, so I can’t really comment on them as people, but just watching them in the ring, they do a lot of spectacular things. They’re obviously extremely athletic, they’re obviously very creative, and they’re young, hungry talents. As I said, one of my goals is to develop talent and figure out who could come into the system and who we could help. These are three possible guys. I thought they all had good showings tonight and I look forward to see what they become in the future. They are very much in demand, so I don’t know how much we will be able to move forward with them.
The indie scene is very different now from when I first started booking in the 2000s. Guys really kind of filled up their calendar two or three months in advance, and not beyond that, because you’d want to leave your options open. Now, guys, I don’t know why, but they book themselves for six or nine months, which to me is not smart, because it’s great that you have all those dates down, but if you’re in demand, you’re going to get them filled anyway, and instead you’re kind of locking yourself in to when other opportunities might arise. You might end up short-changing yourself then, too. We’re having a little bit of a difficult time with some of this, but we’re always on the lookout for the best new talent that we could bring in. Josh Briggs signed a contract with us, and he just started tonight, and he’s a guy I’m real hopeful on, and we got some other names coming in, and some other faces coming in, and everyone’s going to be given a good opportunity here to sink or swim, so we’ll see who we could end up building around.
You have a flourishing partnership with PROGRESS that we saw grow over several days down in New Orleans that you will continue this summer with a six-city tour of the United States. Can you tell me a little about that partnership, and what you hope to get out of it?
I just love those PROGRESS guys; that whole PROGRESS crew is great. They remind me a lot of the way I was back in ROH back in the first five years of ROH or so. They’re very smart guys and they do great business, and I’m always looking for great partners. I want to partner up with quality promotions and quality people. We try to do that all the time. We do that here in Chicago with Freelance Wrestling; I’m a big fan of how they do their business and stuff. I’m going out to Seattle and I’m working with the 3-2-1 BATTLE school in a seminar and tryout. I want to find quality people everywhere, and [PROGRESS] are some of the best right now. Their brand is red hot. We obviously have some friends in common in higher places, as well, so that’s nice brotherhood there, too.
The big thing is you need to create special experiences for the fans now. Back in the day fans would come to shows, but now we live in a culture where fans will come to major events, more than just a regular show. Being able to have a day of wrestling with PROGRESS, where they could come see us at 4 p.m. and then go see PROGRESS at 8 p.m., that might be worth a 200-mile drive in for people to come spend a day like that. It might be worth people flying in. But then the fact that we’re able to bring it to Chicago, Detroit, Boston, New York, is also a huge advantage too, so we want to bring that experience to the fans and bring that special attraction to the fans and give them a great day of wrestling that they’re always going to remember. That’s the end of the game.
I always say, the moment you lose appreciation for the fact that the people who come to your shows are giving you their very valuable leisure time and money, you need to quit, because that’s the most important thing: to cherish the fact that when someone comes to our show, they have a limited budget. They probably worked a job they might not really like for 40 or 50 hours a week, and they’re giving you their free night of the week. They’re giving you their money that they’ve worked hard [to make] and they have to decide where they want to spend it, and we cherish that. Doing double-headers with PROGRESS is a way to supply value to the paying customer.
Speaking of partnerships, you also have a growing relationship with WWE. At Axxess, several EVOLVE talents appeared and even defended their championships, while WWE.com has been promoting the company with feature articles and videos. Can you tell me about this relationship and your role within it?
Triple H is looking for good partners too, and he understands the value of the independent wrestling scene as far as developing talent goes, and what that can do. Look at where NXT is getting a lot of talent from. They have a lot of great home-grown talent, don’t get me wrong, but there’s always guys from the independents, too. It’s a talent source, and he’s into cultivating any talent source, whether it’s the independents or whether it’s football players that get trained at the P.C. (Performance Center), whether it’s international signings that are getting trained or whatever. Triple H is five years down the road from all of us right now in where he wants to be and what it’s going to take to grow and cultivate talent, and he looks for quality places where that can happen.
Fortunately, he recognized the work that we have done here and a lot of that is William Regal who brought us to the forefront there, and he wants to help us, because he wants to keep that talent pipeline going. So it makes sense. For us, it’s great, because first of all, I fucking hate the ‘You sold out’ stuff; I think it’s great for everyone to have a long run on the independents where they can do their art and be proud of their body of work. But at the end of the day, none of these fans who are saying ‘You sold out’, or promoters who are kind of expressing loyalty don’t go anywhere, they’re not going to be there for any of these guys when they’re 50-years-old or 60-years-old, and that’s a fact of the matter. I might sound like an asshole for saying that, but that is the fact of the matter. I do like to see these guys go and make money. When you talk about going to WWE, you’re not just talking about making money for yourself, you’re talking about taking care of your kids, and your grandkids, and generations of your family if you become a major star there.
For them, it’s a pipeline of talent, but for us, obviously we’re getting a great deal of exposure and it’s also giving our talent a clear course to go in there. Between what I’m able to teach them now, because of what I’m learning there, and what we’re able to do here with EVOLVE and everything, we can give them a different kind of experience to help them get to that point where they can make enough money to have a good living themselves, but to take care of generations of their family, which is the end game, while at the same time putting on a great independent wrestling career that fans can enjoy. That they can look back on and be proud for their entire lives.
It’s no secret that Cody Rhodes and The Young Bucks are doing impressive things with their All In show here in Chicago on September 1st. Having worked with a number of names on that card, what is your take on their success and how it translates to the independent scene on the whole?
I don’t know how it’s going to translate to the independent scene because there is help from ROH and New Japan there, you know? They do have a lot of backing there, as well. Saying that, I don’t want to undermine what they’ve done, because what they’ve done is absolutely mind-blowing to me, and I can’t disparage what they’ve done at all. What they have done for themselves is amazing, I mean, historic. Historic level. Even if it was three-to-five-thousand seats, which would have been unbelievably fantastic, I would have said, ‘OK, that’s cool,’ but 10,000, it still blows my mind, and it will for a long time. What they’ve done is remarkable, but for what it’s going to do for the whole independent scene, I don’t think it’s going to do a heck of a lot.
Finally, while wrestling on the whole is thriving financially, with everybody making money, creatively speaking, things seem to be in decline, at least judging by online criticism. People are ragging on WWE for just throwing matches out there with no build. You were in charge of Ring of Honor during arguably its hottest creative period, and you broke into the business when wrestling was at its creative peak. What do you think about wrestling today from a creative standpoint?
I think it’s amazing today. There’s such a wide variety of stuff out there, different styles of wrestling, from ‘Joey Janela’s Spring Break’, which has struck some very strong chords with people, to what the Young Bucks and Cody are doing, to what we’re doing here, to what GCW is doing and the following they’re getting. All the various kind of regional indies that I’m hearing about now, from Freelance, and even though I have no relationship with them, Limitless [Wrestling] in Maine, DEFY [Wrestling] in Seattle, you keep seeing these new groups popping up in new areas, drawing crowds and everything. There’s just so many different types of wrestling, too, anything you could want under the sun is there, so I think it’s a great time creatively.
Now, where it comes in is there is such a massive amount of stuff that is accessible that maybe it might be a little harder to seek out the great stuff, just because you’re flooded with a tidal wave of matches and promotions and GIFs and everything all the time that maybe some of the really, really quality stuff might get lost in the shuffle of be a little harder to stand out and stuff.
How do you personally stand out in this extremely difficult climate, where everything is succeeding?
I mean, it’s hard, and we’re still doing it. We try to switch up what we’re doing with EVOLVE, we try to bring in new talent, we try new things and we’ll see what sticks to the next level. Honestly, one of my main focuses right now is talent development, so that’s where I kind of hope to stick out, too. But yeah, if people had an easy answer to that, they’d be millionaires. It’s a lot of different things. Wrestling has become very regional again; when you look at it, there are a lot of companies that mean a great deal in their home market, and they draw good crowds and they get good buzz, and you see Twitter stuff about them and everything, but you don’t see them doing anything outside of that home market. With us, we don’t really have a home market here at EVOLVE; the closest thing is La Boom in Queens, New York. We don’t really have a home market but we’re still in a position where, because of Club WWN and our business model, we need to run every month, so we go to these various markets.
Chicago, there’s five shows this weekend, there’s ROH with New Japan two weeks ago, everyone just bought All In tickets last week, and there’s strong regional promotions here. We want to come here, because it’s a good wrestling market, but what are we, 10th on the market? And our roster can be seen in other places, so it’s hard, but we have to run shows, but it’s a constant ‘trying to figure it out.’ Maybe we did something interesting tonight, with the end of Matt Riddle and Shane Strickland, and that’ll get us some attention, and that’ll mean something for us in the future in these types of markets.
If you have any answers to that, please let me know, you could tweet me at @BookItGabe, that’s for everybody out there. It’s just a constant kind of figuring it out, experimenting, and exploring, but that’s all fun to me, too.
Thanks a lot, Gabe, I appreciate your time.
Thank you.